Let's FIFA 11/12/13: Making the perfect football game.

[marcio mengao]

i want to see better defense AI. it is so stupid the way defenders are always on midfield allowing space and 1x1 situations even if the team is up 3-0.

[Jimmy G-Force]

Romagnoli,

I dont post in the Fifa forum, and I have read your posts and I do respect you, and I honestly feel you understand the fundementals of football, because you have highlighted it with your posts.

But seriously, everything I have mentioned of what I dislike about Fifa compared to PES over the years has been highlighted ten-fold in Fifa 10, and peoples issues with it.

The bottom line is Fifa is a pure arcade game aimed at wider audience predominantly made up of kids. Fifa looks stunning, but as a semi-pro footballer, it has never captured the substance. EA opt for style over substance, and I feel they always will, as it sells. Manual Fifa is a different game, but not a simulation, but a gamers game, not a footballers game.

I would honestly love EA to use all their superb technology and make a real simualtion like PES. The problem is they dont need to, they sell millions and its all about the $$$$$$$. I know EA dont understand football, Konami do, hence their preference to rather seek the individual nature of the players, teams, first touch etc etc etc etc etc.

Konami's philosophy of football combined with EA's awesome animations would be my perfect game.

I just dont ever see EA going down that route, I dont think they know how to, and more so, as long as kids keep buying their product, they will never need to. Which is a shame.

I dont want to start a flamewar, each to their own. But EA have the power and resource and just dont use it.

I dont think we will ever see a Fifa simulation type game, it's just not their primary driver. They want to create a game that looks like real football, Konami although no-where as pretty, look to create a game that feels real. And I believe that will always be the case.

What I dont understand Romagnoli, is the fact you know exactly what makes a true representation of football, yet you dismiss PES in favour of Fifa, knowing only too well what Fifa fails to deliver. And I dont believe for one second your shallow enough to sell out a true simulation for far superior animations and licences ?

[romagnoli]

Edit before the post even begins - I barely play either game now. I play FIFA 10 occasionally to remind myself of how disappointing a lot of it is, and I play PES 2010 with something of a sense of irony, certainly with as much of a detachment from PES 5/6 as possible. Like watching Godfather 3 and accepting that you'll only remotely enjoy it if you pretend the previous two never happened.

Right, carry on...

Well in the case of the last three PES's it has been simply because, in isolation and also in comparison with the position Konami were in going into the next-gen, they are shite. The gameplay in PES 2010 is ok at best, and there is at least some semblance of PES gameplay buried within. I do play it as part of a small community and, provided the lag isn't as atrocious as it can be, to an extent I do enjoy playing PES this year. However I literally only play it against these people - never in friendly matches besides the odd 2 v 2, only as part of leagues they've set up. Since an initial foray into ML I haven't touched it since, as I don't find single player in any way enticing or enjoyable.

The 'growth curve' for PES started flattening out when it went multi-platform, and then took a nose dive when it went next-gen. I can't help but feel that Konami put a lot of development into the game engines for 2008 and 2009, discovered they were a significant downgrade, then decided to put a hold on throwing resources into the gameplay itself and instead focus their efforts elsewhere for 2010.

I am hopeful that, now that the graphics, off-the-field ML action and tactical elements are in place, they can now work on finally fixing the gameplay itself, partly through improving the animations (which is more than aesthetic - the more sense on-pitch animations make, the better you can aniticipate what may happen in a given situation), making the '360' movement live up to it's name, fixing the comical goalkeeping and obliterating the ludicrous button delay.

I follow FIFA's progress pretty keenly because EA are in the difficult position of trying to make a deep and insightful game with no real past to build on. Whereas Konami built PES through a decade or so of building and tweaking a deep single player/offline multiplayer game engine, EA have pretty much only really started two or three years ago. As much as we all berate various aspects of FIFA 10, a lot of it is out of frustration at how good a football game it could have been. While FIFA 10 has seen a real quality drop in certain areas, it is also arguably one of the best games of any genre for animation, and the 360 degree movement is the benchmark for future football games. Now they just need to attach it all to a football game.

It's a big if, but if EA at least follow the lead of Gran Turismos past and detach hardcore football from the arcade engine (an idea that Gary Paterson commented on as an interesting idea in the official forums), then the maximum potential that FIFA can reach is well above whatever PES can manage. The difference is that we know Konami can reach their peak; the likelihood of EA to do the same hangs in the balance.


I'd say FIFA 11 and PES 2011 are going to be pretty pivotal as far as working out:-

(a) whether EA are going to take the relentless bollocking they've been subjected to, for both gameplay and technical flaws, seriously;
(b) whether Gary Paterson can get more of a hold on how FIFA plays;
(c) whether the potential we all saw in FIFA 08 when we bought it out of dismay will ever be realised;
(c) whether Konami are ever going to get the gameplay back up to scratch.


One thing's for certain though - football game reviews aren't worth the virtual paper they're printed on.

[Jamezinho]

Originally Posted by Jimmy G-Force

The bottom line is Fifa is a pure arcade game aimed at wider audience predominantly made up of kids. Fifa looks stunning, but as a semi-pro footballer, it has never captured the substance. EA opt for style over substance, and I feel they always will, as it sells. Manual Fifa is a different game, but not a simulation, but a gamers game, not a footballers game.

I would honestly love EA to use all their superb technology and make a real simualtion like PES. The problem is they dont need to, they sell millions and its all about the $$$$$$$. I know EA dont understand football, Konami do, hence their preference to rather seek the individual nature of the players, teams, first touch etc etc etc etc etc.

Konami's philosophy of football combined with EA's awesome animations would be my perfect game.

To say that Fifa is pure arcade is some way wide of the mark, in my opinion. But what you said about Fifa being a gamer's game is spot-on. For it to be a true football fan's game, it needs to inject some character and emotion. Give the players much more individuality and introduce more of a managerial element where selecting your team based on tactics and the individual abilities of your players actually matters.

Originally Posted by romagnoli

The 'growth curve' for PES started flattening out when it went multi-platform, and then took a nose dive when it went next-gen. I can't help but feel that Konami put a lot of development into the game engines for 2008 and 2009, discovered they were a significant downgrade, then decided to put a hold on throwing resources into the gameplay itself and instead focus their efforts elsewhere for 2010.

I agree. Konami clearly lack the resources to produce PES on the PS3, 360, PC and Wii, although they should be given credit for at least treating them equally. Even with their massive resources, EA put the PC version of Fifa to the bottom of the pile and we've all seen how far the next-gen console versions have progressed because of that.

As a 360 owner it pains me to say it, but perhaps Konami should drop the 360 version and just concentrate on the PS3 and PC. Konami have repeatedly failed to invest in PES, a series that has been a cash-cow for them down the years. Perhaps they should go back to their Playstation-centric focus if that's what's best for the series. PES2010 sold poorly on the 360 anyway, and with PS3 console sales now strong I think it would be for the best. I would buy a PS3 for PES if it was of the quality of last-gen.

Originally Posted by romagnoli

While FIFA 10 has seen a real quality drop in certain areas, it is also arguably one of the best games of any genre for animation, and the 360 degree movement is the benchmark for future football games. Now they just need to attach it all to a football game.

This line sums-up how I feel about Fifa. It's the old cliche that often gets mocked, but it lacks footballing soul. I bought the game played it solidly for about two weeks and rarely touch it any more. There wasn't enough depth in their to satisfy the football fan in me, but as a game it's technically excellent and that's perhaps why it sells so well to the more casual football fan.

[Jimmy G-Force]

Originally Posted by Jamezinho

To say that Fifa is pure arcade is some way wide of the mark, in my opinion.

Everyone has a differing perspective of what is meant when relating to arcade.
And I, hand on heart, dont mean that term to be used in a degrogatory way when describing Fifa. Hell, there are far more casual football fans, armchair fans, call them what you will, than footballers that play football games.

Fifa is outstanding and beyond, in it's arcade representation. Think of the first ever Arcade football games ever made. The likes or World Cup on the table top, where you had to roll a ball to control the players. Or Virtual Striker many years later. All the players in the games were all on equal par, no player was any different, just 11 men. For the most part, although Fifa is a million years ahead of those games in every way, it still follows the same principle. Forget about the problems with the MM or whatever, thats not what I'm addressing.

Fifa makes football look stunning, the moves, the tricks, the animations, the presentations, the music, the menu's, the commentary, the online, everything. For the casual fan it's a dream. For the hardcore, or people that truly understand all the areas of technique thats involved within real football, then Fifa is a very shallow game, even with all its beauty, and I do admit my jaw has hit the floor on many occasions when watching Fifa being played. But watching and playing are two very different experiences for me.

Manual Fifa is quite literally a different ball-game, and I can fully understand how 'gamers' really love this way of playing, as it's all down to the skill of the individual player, and the rewards must be very satisfying when moves, passes and finally goals come off. As it's all down to the player.

With PES, it's down to the ability of the player controlling the pad, and more so, the ability of the individual player your using combined with the options you choose to initiate. I love the fact that a defender has a shit first touch, I love the fact Eto and Drogba are very poor with lobbed through balls in general, I love over-hit passes from lesser players. I love these aspects as much as their opposites. It's realism, it's simulated. I love the fact your body angle, which foot you use, the amount of pressure your under totally effects the end result of the pass, shot, flick on, whatever. I see things in PES that blow me away from a realism perspective, and I also know alot of these subtle things will go completely un-noticed by the armchair or casual fan.

I believe there will always be a huge a market for both games, as both provide for different requirements. I just dont ever seeing EA go down the simulation route, and manual, as good as it is, is anything but a simulation.

[Jamezinho]

Originally Posted by Jimmy G-Force

I believe there will always be a huge a market for both games, as both provide for different requirements. I just dont ever seeing EA go down the simulation route, and manual, as good as it is, is anything but a simulation.

Agreed. A good thing in theory I guess, although I can't see myself playing much Fifa if it continues on it's current path.

I really don't understand the craze for playing fully manual either. It only serves to make a characterless game even more so. A couple of questions for manager mode fans; If you play fully manual manager mode how do you get a feel for a good or a bad player, when its you that directs and weights every ball? Where is the fun in making new signings when the players all feel the same?

The magic of the master league used to be (and still is to a lesser extent) learning the strengths and weaknesses of your players, playing tactics to suit, and making signings to address the weaknesses. It's the assisted nature of PES that brings the individuality of every player to life. That's what I love about the game and why tactics and your choice of first eleven is so important. PES makes me feel more like a manager, and that's why it will always be more involving, even if it doesn't offer the freedom of control of Fifa. It's more of a tactical battle than just who's more accurate with the joypad.

[romagnoli]

Originally Posted by Jamezinho

Agreed. A good thing in theory I guess, although I can't see myself playing much Fifa if it continues on it's current path.

I really don't understand the craze for playing fully manual either. It only serves to make a characterless game even more so. A couple of questions for manager mode fans; If you play fully manual manager mode how do you get a feel for a good or a bad player, when its you that directs and weights every ball? Where is the fun in making new signings when the players all feel the same?

A surprising number of people tout it as the most realistic option available, but that is chiefly down to the illusion of realism that misplaced passes give. The fact that the success or failure is regardless of the player making the pass is often overlooked by these people*. Personally I think semi-assisted passing is the way of the future - a much more sophisticated system than in FIFA 10 is needed as that is essentially assisted passing up to a point. One that allows you to put more information into the pass than PES currently allows.



*That's not to say all manual players think this way, before anyone goes batshit mental.

The magic of the master league used to be (and still is to a lesser extent) learning the strengths and weaknesses of your players, playing tactics to suit, and making signings to address the weaknesses. It's the assisted nature of PES that brings the individuality of every player to life. That's what I love about the game and why tactics and your choice of first eleven is so important. PES makes me feel more like a manager, and that's why it will always be more involving, even if it doesn't offer the freedom of control of Fifa. It's more of a tactical battle than just who's more accurate with the joypad.

Signing a good player in ML feels like doing the same in Football Manager. Somewhere between that and getting a cool weapon in an RPG. You're eager to try him out, deal new levels of damage to the opposition, and see what extra options he gives you.

In FIFA it feels like unlocking a new costume in Street Fighter. Looks novel but ultimately irrelevant.

[klashman69]

Originally Posted by Jimmy G-Force

Everyone has a differing perspective of what is meant when relating to arcade.
And I, hand on heart, dont mean that term to be used in a degrogatory way when describing Fifa. Hell, there are far more casual football fans, armchair fans, call them what you will, than footballers that play football games.

Fifa is outstanding and beyond, in it's arcade representation. Think of the first ever Arcade football games ever made. The likes or World Cup on the table top, where you had to roll a ball to control the players. Or Virtual Striker many years later. All the players in the games were all on equal par, no player was any different, just 11 men. For the most part, although Fifa is a million years ahead of those games in every way, it still follows the same principle. Forget about the problems with the MM or whatever, thats not what I'm addressing.

Fifa makes football look stunning, the moves, the tricks, the animations, the presentations, the music, the menu's, the commentary, the online, everything. For the casual fan it's a dream. For the hardcore, or people that truly understand all the areas of technique thats involved within real football, then Fifa is a very shallow game, even with all its beauty, and I do admit my jaw has hit the floor on many occasions when watching Fifa being played. But watching and playing are two very different experiences for me.

Manual Fifa is quite literally a different ball-game, and I can fully understand how 'gamers' really love this way of playing, as it's all down to the skill of the individual player, and the rewards must be very satisfying when moves, passes and finally goals come off. As it's all down to the player.

With PES, it's down to the ability of the player controlling the pad, and more so, the ability of the individual player your using combined with the options you choose to initiate. I love the fact that a defender has a shit first touch, I love the fact Eto and Drogba are very poor with lobbed through balls in general, I love over-hit passes from lesser players. I love these aspects as much as their opposites. It's realism, it's simulated. I love the fact your body angle, which foot you use, the amount of pressure your under totally effects the end result of the pass, shot, flick on, whatever. I see things in PES that blow me away from a realism perspective, and I also know alot of these subtle things will go completely un-noticed by the armchair or casual fan.

I believe there will always be a huge a market for both games, as both provide for different requirements. I just dont ever seeing EA go down the simulation route, and manual, as good as it is, is anything but a simulation.

Jimmy your spot on really. Looking at the immense progress of FIFA 08 and EURO 2008 only for ea to go so sharply back to it's arcadey roots for 09 and 10. Tells me if we want the perfect sim it's up to Konami to start putting some more fluid looking animations and fine tuning some of PES 2010 errors!

FIFA has made a killing this year in sales and from what the developer Gary Patterson said. "Most people enjoy the gameplay as it is, fast and fluid". Having a realistic game will not sell to the kids.

[Jamezinho]

Originally Posted by romagnoli

Personally I think semi-assisted passing is the way of the future - a much more sophisticated system than in FIFA 10 is needed as that is essentially assisted passing up to a point. One that allows you to put more information into the pass than PES currently allows.

100% agree. I've always used semi-assisted controls since I first 'converted' to Fifa with 08. It's the best of both worlds really. I don't want to be labouring over every pass and shot, and getting frustrated because I'm not 100% accurate with the analog stick. But I want a bit more freedom than PES allows at present while still taking the all important player stats into account.

Seabass needs to look at semi-assisted Fifa and take notes.

Originally Posted by romagnoli

In FIFA it feels like unlocking a new costume in Street Fighter. Looks novel but ultimately irrelevant.

That's the feeling I get. I played two seasons of manager mode on Fifa09, and after messing about with tactics and signing a few new players it quickly became apparent that it was of no consequence. Manager mode left me feeling cold.

A good sports game should make you feel attached to the different characters in your team, the way master league and Football Manager does.

Originally Posted by klashman69

Jimmy your spot on really. Looking at the immense progress of FIFA 08 and EURO 2008 only for ea to go so sharply back to it's arcadey roots for 09 and 10. Tells me if we want the perfect sim it's up to Konami to start putting some more fluid looking animations and fine tuning some of PES 2010 errors!

Euro 2008 was the pinnacle of EA's football games on this generation of consoles. They had so many things right in that game. I really hope the world cup game plays like Euro 2008.

EA have lost their way a bit, without them really knowing it, or caring. There's plenty of issues with the game that I'm not sure they are willing to address because the game is selling bucket loads as it is.

I think the gap between PES and Fifa will be much closer this year. With decent animations, a little more freedom and quicker response times PES2011 would feel massively better. Ultimately, I hope Ubisoft will come in with their new football title and kick them both up the arse.

[nerf]

Originally Posted by Jamezinho

I really don't understand the craze for playing fully manual either. It only serves to make a characterless game even more so. A couple of questions for manager mode fans; If you play fully manual manager mode how do you get a feel for a good or a bad player, when its you that directs and weights every ball? Where is the fun in making new signings when the players all feel the same?

Passing is but one facet. Why would a good or bad player be defined solely by his passing accuracy when there's 999 other aspects that make him the player he is? Manual controls don't affect his Marking, his Acceleration, his Balance etc etc.

Besides, I don't believe for a moment that the concepts of manual controls and player individualisation are mutually exclusive. Manual passing (for example) should be affected by the individual's passing accuracy, by their weaker foot rating if applicable, by their general consistency level, and so on. These individual factors can be included... but first you need to have some individualisation at all. FIFA doesn't have that regardless of the control scheme.

The 'craze for fully manual', for me at least, is what Jimmy G-Force described. The test of skill, the reward, the satisfaction. It provides more of a challenge to overcome. I can't stomach PES or assisted FIFA any more, it's too pedestrian in comparison.

[romagnoli]

I don't mind manual controls - I quite enjoy them at times - and now that they're here they certainly shouldn't be removed. I don't think they're mutually exclusive from player individuality but it does remove an awful lot of scope. I think manual controls, as they currently are, can't be called realistic, but with a lot of work on making the players on the pitch pass more believably, I could well be proven wrong. As it stands though, manual mode is in many ways the same as making a shotgun in an FPS just as effective over long distances as a sniper rifle, or (if you don't like gross exaggerations) making an AK-47 indistinguishable from an M16. Of course assisted passing does much the same..

I guess what Jamezinho is doing as much as anything is railing against the misconception of those who use manual and describe it as realistic just because passes can go astray.

ANYWAY...


What I actually wanted to ask about was what people think of the PES online Community setup? Do you think this should be merged with FIFA Clubs in some way?

I know nothing about Clubs at the moment. Never touched it. Some of this may overlap with what's already about, but I was under the impression that Clubs was essentially like a clan, focussed on 10 vs 10, but little more.

Should someone be able to start up a club, defining as part of its' creation that it is a semi-assisted, or a manual club that likes to play 8-10 minute halves on slow setting (maybe sim mode and not arcade, please EA? ... Maybe your club should be able to search for other clubs with the same footballing tastes, and then add it to a list of your club's affiliates. This'd mean you could arrange friendlies or competitions against another club's members, defining in the competition rules that it is a semi/manual/assisted sim/arcade cup/league of x-minute halves.

The intention is to create gradually growing communities of clubs populated by players who like to use certain setups, so they don't have to use the quick online match and pray that someone somewhere in the world is using semi controls at a slow match speed. Instead they know that their club members all came together to play that very type of match. By adding other clubs to your club's 'friend list', you instantly introduce 30 odd members of one club to another bunch of 30, all united by that common interest. You can also see their friends list (friend-of-a-friends list?) and choose whether or not to pair up with them as well.

It's like FIFA Club social networking..!

Any ideas/thoughts? I'll try and pass anything on to EA. The community option in PES was brilliant - the sort of thing you can't go back from once you've tried it - but there's lots of scope to build on it, and I think given the number of settings options in FIFA I think it needs this community setup even more than PES does.

[Dusse]

Originally Posted by romagnoli

I think manual controls, as they currently are, can't be called realistic.

Just a question: would you call any of the racing simulation games out there realistic? Or any shooting simulation etc?

[romagnoli]

I'm not sure where you're going with that. Down the auto-aim or manual stick-shift/ no ABS route? In which case I'd point out that in racing games you have to slow down for corners, and one car handles differently than another. That is already more realistic than being able to hit any type of pass with any player, not experiencing any inaccuracy on the pass other than your own.

Or down the 'mouse click does not equal gun trigger' route? Obviously I'm talking within the confines of what a football game can achieve while still being fun or playable.

Edit as I don't want to make another post on the subject:
A car is inanimate. Most of its moving parts are uncontrollable, but the fundamental controls can be closely mapped to a gamepad, let alone a steering wheel. Everything else is physics, plus AI if racing against bots. Representing a footballer on a game pad is far, far more abstract. As such it relies on the programmers to represent that player's failings and strengths in a far more involved manner, otherwise there's no difference from one player to the next besides non-footballing aspects, like height or speed.


Anyhow, I don't really want to be drawn on the manual vs assisted controls subject. It's been done to death elsewhere. I want to crack on with the Clubs/Community discussion.

[Jamezinho]

Originally Posted by Dusse

Just a question: would you call any of the racing simulation games out there realistic? Or any shooting simulation etc?

I think there's a fundamental difference between how a racing sim or FPS works, and a sports game.

Take a game like Forza 3 for instance. The game has loads of assists so it appeals to as wide an audience as possible, and can be made to feel like an arcade racer for those not so serious about driving games. But to feel the individual handling characteristics of every car you need to play with all the assists off.

Turning all the assists off in Fifa doesn't make the players more individual, it's the opposite. I don't want to go over old ground but it depends how you want to play the game, and if you want to manually over-ride every aspect of player control.

Personally sports games are all about feeling like the player I'm in control of. I play NBA2k10, Madden10 and PES10, and all those games give me this feeling, none of which rely on manual controls.

Edit: as Romagnoli says, I think we're done on this discussion.

[romagnoli]

Nobody going to bite on the Clubs/Community idea? I guess that's because a lot of it has been done before, by PES or by other games. I'd have thought it would be a good idea though, to get EA to get users to actually invest more of an interest in Clubs while also encouraging us to find like-minded players we don't know.

I know it isn't directly gameplay related but it would help the hardcore and the casuals stay clear of each other. I'm really hoping EA do include some sort of sim mode, in which case being able to quickly find like minded people in a community seems essential.

What do people think about the team select screens etc as well? Doesn't it seem a bit odd that, for those of us who don't play offline multiplayer, half of the screen is constantly taken up by a blank space and "READY!"?

That's also ignoring how all the menus take up the 4:3 area as well, leaving big empty spaces down both sides of the screen for widescreen TV owners. I want to be able to see as much info as possible, a la Football Manager. If I'm playing two player offline, then by all means cut the player select options down or push everything out wide, but I'd rather have everything laid out in front of me than try to read a road map by looking through a smarties tube.

[romagnoli]

Looks like I was right about ofseeker being Adam

Anyway...

Thanks very much to everyone who has contributed so far. People here, unlike the official forums, always post suggestions that are always worth reading, whether I agree or not. I think a lot of it is because whereas those with a passing interest may visit a forum you find in the back of an instruction manual ( >_> ) or on the publisher's website, this place is somewhere you find when you want user created patches, chants, kits etc. Nobody sticks around here to post "who's your fav striker lol" or "How to use 6-0-4 formations" threads...

On that note, I thought I'd paste this in here to try and restoke the fires a bit.

Originally Posted by Gary Paterson's Evo-web sign-in

Hi Romagnoli,

I am the Creative Director of FIFA (360/PS3). I think your thread entitled "Let's FIFA 11/12/13: Making the perfect football game" is very, very good. I am working my way through it right now but if you have time to collate that feedback and ideas and send to me then I'd be happy to take a look.

I know we get a bit of a bad rep but we at EA Canada do try to reach out to the community as much as possible, but it is often not easy to understand all of the feedback that we get. Your thread is very good as you endeavor to get into detail - thanks for that.

While we are happy with the progress that we have made with the series in the last 4 years we do understand that there are people out there who want something different (more sim) than what we offer. Now that we have all the fundamental pieces in a decent place we are in a position where we can make the kind of adjustments that you crave. Our only hesitation is that we don't want to lose the (many) people who like the style of game that we already produce. This is a tricky problem but one that we are up for trying to solve as we (devs), like you, want to play something more sim and work very, very hard to try to make it happen.

Interested in your thoughts. Thanks for your effort, support and passion for our game.

Gary Paterson

Leaving aside all bugs and glitches (which we all think should have been fixed by delaying the release), I think it shows the predicament EA have got themselves into - when you release something that sells millions despite being arcadey, how do you keep that fanbase while also becoming much more realistic?

I've suggested to Gary in the past on the official forums, and I hope he happens to read it again here, that PES got to where it did (which eventually was overtaking FIFA in sales) without any significant marketing or self-financed PR, but almost exclusively on critical acclaim and word of mouth. They focussed on making something that was accessible for novices to the game (or even to games), while still making sure that once they sank their teeth into it there was depth that would last them right up until the next PES. Even for the numerous players like me who couldn't go more than a couple of days PES-less without getting the shakes, their hands held out into empty space and their thumbs twitching to phantom one-twos, there was an almost limitless amount still to be reaped from each installment. It was only the demo of the next PES that would distract me, as far as games go, for more than a week.

I know i'm preaching to the choir here, but as an example of the difference between the two, Konami made it nigh on impossible to score first time volleys for ages (those perfect dipping volleys are still ever elusive), but rather than make everyone complain that they weren't scoring wonder goals within a week, instead it made those goals something to remember for months, even years. I still remember at least one goal I've scored during my uni days in PES2!

The whole point of realism in sports games, especially with bread and butter stuff like ball physics and passing, is not that games become hard and unapproachable, but that the game makes sense.

It's clear that Gary really wants something less arcadey and more involved, so it'd do us all a favour for future FIFAs to put forward as strong a case as possible for EA to go down the sim path and let the masses (many of whom probably wouldn't even notice anyway) follow, in much the same way they did for Konami. Call me an optimist (I can be), call me naive ( if I was naive, I wouldn't know it would I?), call me drunk (oh yes), but we've cocked an ear over in Vancouver, the lead designer no less, so the more we can give him stuff he can take into a meeting discussing how to make an "easy to pick up, hard to master" football sim, the better.

[Placebo]

Originally Posted by romagnoli

Looks like I was right about ofseeker being Adam

What a complete and utter dick, actually trying to praise himself with a fake username, pathetic.

[Nick Cave]

One word. Issues...

[nerf]

I could write all day about ideas to improve forthcoming versions. I'll chuck out these three for now.

1. Player individuality

Spoiler:

Show Spoiler

Problem:
Each footballer lacks individuality and personality, negatively affecting gameplay depth and authenticity.

Causes:
- Attribute values are not meaningful and impactful in-game.
- There is one AI behaviour template for all players.

Suggestions:

Lose the 1-99 range, adopt 1-20.

It cannot be possible to represent 99 meaningful, tangible variations of a single ability, so why attempt that illusion? Reduce this to a 1-20 system like Football Manager and focus on making those 20 increments as tangible and visible as possible. And then actually use the full range in the database, not just the top half of the scale.

Player Traits.

Each footballer should be assigned traits that affect their style of play. Pro Evo ('Dribbling', 'Line' etc) and Football Manager ('Shoots From Range', 'Stays Back' etc) have long had this. This is an easy way of differentiating between footballers, by assigning behavourial tendencies. Xavi will slow the play down and look to pass to a teammate, whereas Cristiano Ronaldo will dribble quickly at an opponent to create a shooting opportunity. Emile Heskey will look to receive the ball to feet/chest, whereas Gabby Agbonlahor will look to run onto a ball over the top of the defence. This will bring more personality to your teammates and more authenticity to AI opponents.

Weak-foot frequency.

One behaviour that is instantly obvious and visually defining is the amount that a player favours his stronger foot. Even great players like Giggs and Messi manipulate the ball 90% of the time with their left, or Xavi or Scholes with their right foot. This could be very easily represented similar to Football Manager's simple three-stage attribute (Both, Left/Right, Left/Right Only).

More Info!

While I'm on the topic, would it be so hard to have a Help/Info button in the front-end when viewing a player's bio, which will give a short one/two sentence description of what the highlighted attribute actually impacts in-game? Why mysteriously hide what Aggression or Reactions actually affects? It's basic game design to give the gamer all the tools he/she needs to make meaningful gameplay decisions.

2. Defensive AI / Tactical Defending

Spoiler:

Show Spoiler

Problem:
The game almost always descends into an arcade Pressure-fest, where gamers charge at the ball-possessor relentlessly.

Causes:
- Defensive positioning AI is much too weak and loose to rely upon, so gamers resort to frantic pressure to compensate.
- Pressuring is too effective to not use.
- Fatigue is almost irrelevant, so constant sprinting has little drawback.

Suggestions:

Tighten up the defensive AI considerably.

Defensive AI is an area where FIFA 10 fell flat on its face; FIFA 09 did a better job of this, although it was far from perfect. There are many factors involved here:

- Defenders do not mark opposing attackers tight enough around the penalty area, meaning it is far too easy for anyone to play a forward pass to a striker's feet >20 yards from goal. Marking should be loose when far from goal (allowing margin for error where there is no immediate danger), becoming tighter when closer to the penalty area (to prevent such easy ball movement).

- When defending, midfielders are not strict enough in their attempt to hold the team's shape, it's far too loose and sloppy. They should look to drop in and adopt their roles according to the formation, shifting laterally as the opponent moves the ball around the pitch, and focussing on denying passing lanes. Defending should be approached as a collective team unit, not a random cluster of individuals running in different directions.

- AI defenders re-position with far too much weight and momentum. They turn to face a direction and RUN, subsequently finding it difficult to stop/turn when required, and before you know it the team has lost all shape. Defending in a cohesive unit should be done facing up to the ball. AI defenders should sidestep, jockey and shift laterally, smoothly and tactically... not just sprint headlong in various directions as if they are tethered to the nearest opponent.

Remove the 'Hold button to charge and tackle' feature.

Tackling should be about timing, not about holding a button down until you suddenly end up with the ball. I'm fine with the idea of being able to hold a button to jockey, to face-up and remain goalside of an opponent - that has value. Actually committing to a tackle attempt should be about your timing and about your own control, not automatic. This will make gamers more selective about how they close down and tackle.

Reduce the effectiveness of Secondary Pressure.

The second AI-controlled 'pressurer' should be less reliable; more likely to miss the tackle, VERY likely to give away a foul, and ALWAYS liable to leave a gaping hole in your formation to be exploited. Secondary Pressure should then become a tool used either in desperation or with a surprise element. Desperation if you need to close down an opponent about to pull the trigger, or surprise if you suddenly use it once or twice a game to win the ball high up the pitch, when the opponent was not expecting it. It should become a rarely-used tactic with high risk/reward gameplay.

Increase the effect of stamina/fatigue.

Finally, to stop people charging and sprinting madly on both sides of the ball for 90 minutes, but particularly to help reduce relentless Pressure, players should tire more easily and be affected by fatigue. This should dissuade the gamer from thoughtless button-mashing. Defending should become more about intelligent positioning and timing when your defenders are less able to sprint aggressively around the pitch.

3. Depth and authenticity of atmosphere.

Spoiler:

Show Spoiler

Problem:
The game becomes bland, where every match feels the same and lacks in genuine atmosphere.

Causes:
- Each fixture feels and is treated the same regardless of competition or importance.
- Weather/Time settings are illogical/repetitive.

Suggestions:

Visualise the matchday buildup.

Give today's fixture some identity. The pre-match menus, menu backgrounds and to some extent the pre-game intro should all be unique to the competition (one for the league, one for the domestic cup(s), one for each continental competition). The competition today's fixture is in should be splashed all over the matchday buildup, not one small bit of text hidden away on one page.

Give today's location some identity. If I'm playing away in the Champions League, which part of Europe have I travelled to? Could the pre-match menu backgrounds (passively) show us getting off the coach/plane, then the crowd arriving at the stadium, then the changing room before kick-off?

Give today's opponent some identity. A proper scouting report on my next opponent (this has existed to an extent, but could be much improved). Show me their starting formation today and highlight the most talented players in it. What is their team's overall strength compared directly to mine? What is their gameplan?

Make more use of team colours.

Every club has colours associated with it. If I have an away fixture at Newcastle United there should be black and white everywhere; in what the crowd wear, in the stadium structure itself, in the menus, everything.

Realistic seasonal weather and time of day.

Proper seasonal weather, based on the geographical location that the fixture is taking place in and the time of year. If it is a Saturday/Sunday league fixture, it's daytime. If it's a midweek fixture, it's at night under the floodlights. If I'm playing in the snow, I have a non-white ball. Simple ways of making each fixture feel different and more authentic.

[Placebo]

Originally Posted by nerf

Player Traits.

Each footballer should be assigned traits that affect their style of play. Pro Evo ('Dribbling', 'Line' etc) and Football Manager ('Shoots From Range', 'Stays Back' etc) have long had this. This is an easy way of differentiating between footballers, by assigning behavourial tendencies. Xavi will slow the play down and look to pass to a teammate, whereas Cristiano Ronaldo will dribble quickly at an opponent to create a shooting opportunity. Emile Heskey will look to receive the ball to feet/chest, whereas Gabby Agbonlahor will look to run onto a ball over the top of the defence. This will bring more personality to your teammates and more authenticity to AI opponents.

They are, they obviously don't do enough though, and the fact they've been hidden in the last two Fifa's is pointless and stupid IMO.

The good of traits is they're now tied into the commentary, if you use a player who has the playmaker trait for example there's commentary about them being a playmaker, they like passing the ball around, etc. etc. same for players with long shot traits and things like that.

[andythom77]

very very good post, i wish i had enough time and commitment to write my thoughts down. are you going to be looking at other aspects of the game?

can romagnoli forward your thoughts to GP?

[quiet_riot]

What a top notch post.

[Nick Cave]

Nice post nerf, it's just a shame we'll be doing this after FIFA 19 I fear given the damn trickle pace the genre is going...

[Shooto]

I think the Euro 2008 game led to a much better FIFA 09 than we would have got if EA didnt have the opportunity to listen to feedback from the users of the Euro game.

So hopefully FIFA 11 will benefit from a similar sort of boost in quality with the feedback from the World Cup game.

[andythom77]

lets hope so

[romagnoli]

Will do.

As well as the ideas themselves, Nerf's layout there is very good. I'd suggest that anyone else who might want to post should at least put a bold or underlined title of some sort at the top, even if the post itself is only a few sentences long. A bit formal but I'm looking to get stuff read and hopefully put in by EA, so the easier it is for them to digest the better!

Nerf, I sent my gameplay vids thread to Gary a while back as well, which contains your post about the defence. It's a good read, for those who haven't already done so.

Nerf, I'd be (pleasantly) surprised if it was used but I agree about the 1-20 stats comments you've made. I don't mind if EA decide to keep the 1-99 for overall ratings, but how much difference does a rating of 84 for shooting make, compared to 83? 1-20 is so much easier to absorb and leads to less quarrelling about a couple of points here and there.

[romagnoli]

I thought I'd knock this together from nerf's post. If you have an idea, please quote this post and fill in the gaps with your suggestion(s). Obviously you don't have to do 3!

If you have any vids (real or game) to prove your point, please do stick them in - they really help...


1. Title

Spoiler:

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Problem:

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Suggestions:

2. Title

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3. Title

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[romagnoli]

I've done a lot about how the game should be more tactical, but nothing on how to encourage people to use tactics, so here we go!

1. Improve the layout and usability of tactics and player info screens

Spoiler:

Show Spoiler

Problem: The formations and tactics screens are a nightmare to use, which actually discourages people from braving them. Similarly looking at a player's stats is a horrific experience.

Causes: - Horrendous button lag on menus adding up to cost lots of time.
- Poorly implemented custom tactics save system makes simple tweaks a real chore.
- Not nearly enough info visible or digestible on screen at once.
- More (effective) quick-buttons needed while in squads/formation screens.

Suggestions:

Reduce the button lag, and the time it takes a menu to load.

FIFA 08's menus were ok at best for this, but feel instantaneous compared to 10. PES has the speed of their tactics menus utterly perfect. No wooshing, no fancy graphics, just a button press and an instant response.

Line PES 10 and FIFA 11 up side by side and set a number of random formation/player changes. Change from a flat 4 midfield to a diamond just by moving the dots into position. Put your oldest tough tackling midfielder on the left, an athletic, ball playing midfielder on the right. Put your most technical midfielder in the middle. Select your two youngest strikers a run out. Time how long this takes on PES compared to FIFA and see where most of the time is lost. Clue: Whoosh...


Store your last three custom formations and, if we decide to keep one, let us rename it.

Is there a need for however many slots there currently are? Why not make two or three of them autosaves rather than force us to save any minor, one-off tweaks we might make? Just because I want my winger to come inside for this game doesn't mean I want to keep the formation. At the moment I'm having to use one slot like an autosave to cut down on the clutter. Why isn't this the default setup?


Reduce the number of button presses needed to do anything.

Better use of shortcut buttons are essential. In PES 2010 you can tweak the formation just by pressing square while highlighting a player, nudging the player to the right spot, confirming what sort of role you want him to play in (each position having the player's rating alongside), all of which is instantaneous, smooth and easy. Bish bash bosh.

In FIFA it'd need you to come out of the squad screen (whoosh...), go into the formations screen (whoosh...), choose which formation to edit (whoosh...I think?), tweak the player's position, wonder why the player cannot be a winger when he appears to be inside the right square, tweak the position a bit more, choose LW (or RW, since this doesn't impact effectiveness!), choose which slot you want to save the formation to, come out of the edit screen, make sure the new formation is selected, come back out of the formations screen (whoosh...), select the squad screen (whoosh...), and then switch the PS3 off because you've got work tomorrow..!

Even just being able to tweak the position using the right stick would cut out so many screen changes.


Allow us to use the full screen if in single player or online.

I've said this about FIFA's menus and info screens before - it's like reading an atlas through a Smarties tube. There's a lot of information there, but you can only see a tiny amount at a time. It takes a ridiculous amount of time just to look at all of a player's stats.

I know the current setup means EA just have to create one screen for everything, rather than one for single player/offline and one for splitscreen multiplayer, but these menus haven't really changed for years now, besides becoming slower!

Isn't it high time we were able to put all the info we have up on screen? Not least in MM, when you are meant to be managing and rotating a squad. Why can't I see all of a player's stats at once? Why can't I see all of my squad onscreen, grouped by GK / DEF / MID / FWD? I should be able to see my squad alongside my formations, much like FM. At the moment I'm only really getting any use out of a third of my HDTV screen - the menus are all in the 4:3 part of the screen, and half of that is reserved for the other player.

BRING BACK THE HEXAGON!!
I can't tell one 80-rated player from another. So many people complain that specialist players have low ratings, but ignore that the player IS accurately rated; it's their immense speed, or physical presence, or work rate, that makes them better than theoretically higher rated yet less dangerous/effective peers. How can anyone tell off the back of one stat and one of the most useless attribute viewing systems in the sports genre?

[Jamezinho]

Great post, nerf. I'm in complete agreement with your points and suggestions. I think the idea of using 1-20 for player stats is a sensible idea, and wouldn't have an adverse affect on individuality just because it's not a scale of 1-99. I think it would make the collection of player data much simpler and could allow them to introduce more attributes.

Originally Posted by romagnoli

Looks like I was right about ofseeker being Adam

What a childish thing to do. The guy has problems.

Prick.

[Jamezinho]

Originally Posted by romagnoli

It's clear that Gary really wants something less arcadey and more involved, so it'd do us all a favour for future FIFAs to put forward as strong a case as possible for EA to go down the sim path and let the masses (many of whom probably wouldn't even notice anyway) follow, in much the same way they did for Konami. Call me an optimist (I can be), call me naive ( if I was naive, I wouldn't know it would I?), call me drunk (oh yes), but we've cocked an ear over in Vancouver, the lead designer no less, so the more we can give him stuff he can take into a meeting discussing how to make an "easy to pick up, hard to master" football sim, the better.

I'm sure Gary wont wind me saying, but he sent me a PM about a week ago asking for my feedback on Fifa. I think he'd read one of my comments on here where I said I was massively disappointed with Fifa 10 and wanted to know how I would improve it. I sent him a lengthy list over at EA Forums, pretty much all the criticisms that have been posted by us lot here.

My respect for EA has risen tenfold after experiencing this kind of community involvement first hand. Konami would never do anything like this.