EURO 2012 DLC Pack

[Mark]

My bad! Actually I meant Serbia... just talking about the Barça match yesterday... maybe this was reason I write Spain... classic brain fart I guess

[pepper63]

Buggy motherfucker is freezing in online mode.

[romagnoli]

It's a real shame about the kits and licenses. This argument about limited resource seems smells of BS for a start, so you're left with the other point about limited market size. You're limiting your market size yourselves by releasing a half-baked product, and creating ill feeling amongst your future custom by not being open about it in the first place, particularly when charging what looks increasingly like an exorbitant amount of money in the first place. This Expedition mode seems vapid in the extreme despite almost getting bigger billing than the Euros themselves. Who thought that'd be a better idea than putting some basic effort into making people want to play qualifiers?

Now, EA will probably shift a number of millions of digital copies of Euro 2012 - a lot of them now, and then a big spike around the start of the Euros themselves. There will probably be statistics that justify not licensing the teams ("See? We were right. Nobody played as Welas, or North Ilerand, or Sberbia") and so many people will casually get the download without ever hearing from others that the DLC is only half licensed and lacks qualifiers. But these little tournament games are a rare opportunity for EA to show some love for what they do, to try and put some of that soul into the experience that FIFA perpetually lacks. Everything about the DLC seems money-oriented from the off, rather than about being a product that shares in our love of the sport while also happening to make money. The ability to pull off that image is the sort of thing that stops you getting voted Worst Company In America.

[Honome]

The real shame is how people give money to EA for any shit they release...

[CrispX]

Originally Posted by Honome_WEC

The real shame is how people give money to EA for any shit they release...

Yes. In fact will explain the problems.

[SteelHorse75]

Who cares re Wales? They never qualify anyway. Shouldn't even be in the game! :-)

[PU6HY]

Originally Posted by SteelHorse75

Who cares re Wales? They never qualify anyway. Shouldn't even be in the game! :-)

We've got just as much chance as winning the Euros as you (ie. fuck all!) and like you said, we aren't even in it!

[Lami]

Originally Posted by romagnoli

It's a real shame about the kits and licenses. This argument about limited resource seems smells of BS for a start, so you're left with the other point about limited market size. You're limiting your market size yourselves by releasing a half-baked product, and creating ill feeling amongst your future custom by not being open about it in the first place, particularly when charging what looks increasingly like an exorbitant amount of money in the first place. This Expedition mode seems vapid in the extreme despite almost getting bigger billing than the Euros themselves. Who thought that'd be a better idea than putting some basic effort into making people want to play qualifiers?

Now, EA will probably shift a number of millions of digital copies of Euro 2012 - a lot of them now, and then a big spike around the start of the Euros themselves. There will probably be statistics that justify not licensing the teams ("See? We were right. Nobody played as Welas, or North Ilerand, or Sberbia") and so many people will casually get the download without ever hearing from others that the DLC is only half licensed and lacks qualifiers. But these little tournament games are a rare opportunity for EA to show some love for what they do, to try and put some of that soul into the experience that FIFA perpetually lacks. Everything about the DLC seems money-oriented from the off, rather than about being a product that shares in our love of the sport while also happening to make money. The ability to pull off that image is the sort of thing that stops you getting voted Worst Company In America.

Mate, I seriously couldn't have put any of that any better.

Thank you.

[nerf]

Originally Posted by romagnoli

Now, EA will probably shift a number of millions of digital copies of Euro 2012 - a lot of them now, and then a big spike around the start of the Euros themselves. There will probably be statistics that justify not licensing the teams ("See? We were right. Nobody played as Welas, or North Ilerand, or Sberbia") and so many people will casually get the download without ever hearing from others that the DLC is only half licensed and lacks qualifiers. But these little tournament games are a rare opportunity for EA to show some love for what they do, to try and put some of that soul into the experience that FIFA perpetually lacks. Everything about the DLC seems money-oriented from the off, rather than about being a product that shares in our love of the sport while also happening to make money. The ability to pull off that image is the sort of thing that stops you getting voted Worst Company In America.

Sales of these tournament games are predominantly spontaneous, they are sourced in pre-existing tournament frenzy rather than enthusiasm generated for the software itself. If that sounds like a flowery interpretation of 'some people will buy any old licensed crap', then that's what it is. Developing something grander of Euro 2012 means diverting greater resource and greater expense to what is essentially a short-lived sideshow that shifts nowhere near the units of the main title, and would that effort result in a worthwhile increase in sales? Presumably not.

It's like saying... we want a full-blooded stand-alone game, with gameplay improvements and the ultimate Euro atmosphere and soul and everything!! So basically, we'd be expecting EA to make almost two FIFAs this year. And EA look at it these days and go: now that we're selling about 10m units of the main franchise to the world, and project only about 1.25m units of a Euro game for Europeans... why allocate massive resource, when we can probably sell a vaguely similar number of units just by doing a stripped-down DLC direct to the fingertips of our already-captured audience, which, by the way, also extends the shelf-life of FIFA12 by association, and diverts less dev support away from our efforts on FIFA13, and keeps dev costs way down, and doesn't require in-store promotion, and...

Now... you might say that for £20 (or whatever it is) you'd justifiably expect a little more, which is fair enough. But pricing aside, while it's nice to be hippy about doing things for the love and the soul, the reality is that in terms of resource allocation and the distribution model there is so much about this approach that makes sense for them.

[romagnoli]

Originally Posted by nerf

Sales of these tournament games are predominantly spontaneous, they are sourced in pre-existing tournament frenzy rather than enthusiasm generated for the software itself. If that sounds like a flowery interpretation of 'some people will buy any old licensed crap', then that's what it is. Developing something grander of Euro 2012 means diverting greater resource and greater expense to what is essentially a short-lived sideshow that shifts nowhere near the units of the main title, and would that effort result in a worthwhile increase in sales? Presumably not.

It's like saying... we want a full-blooded stand-alone game, with gameplay improvements and the ultimate Euro atmosphere and soul and everything!! So basically, we'd be expecting EA to make almost two FIFAs this year.

It's only like that if you're exaggerating to flesh out a point, to be fair. Fact is that slider tweaks alone would be more than sufficient for most of us in gameplay terms, possibly with one or two minor additions well within the scope of what PES/anyothergame players are used to receiving in every patch.

The rhetoric in 'diverting greater resource and greater expense' implies the current amount is sufficient, given the price point. It really isn't though. The problem is they haven't used sufficient resource or expense for that consumer cost to begin with - not to leave the consumer feeling sated or satisfied about £16 well spent.

As for atmosphere and soul, we're talking about something EA last achieved in WC2010. So it isn't like making a second FIFA title at all.

And EA look at it these days and go: now that we're selling about 10m units of the main franchise to the world, and project only about 1.25m units of a Euro game for Europeans... why allocate massive resource, when we can probably sell a vaguely similar number of units just by doing a stripped-down DLC direct to the fingertips of our already-captured audience, which, by the way, also extends the shelf-life of FIFA12 by association, and diverts less dev support away from our efforts on FIFA13, and keeps dev costs way down, and doesn't require in-store promotion, and...


Now... you might say that for £20 (or whatever it is) you'd justifiably expect a little more, which is fair enough. But pricing aside, while it's nice to be hippy about doing things for the love and the soul, the reality is that in terms of resource allocation and the distribution model there is so much about this approach that makes sense for them.

I'm afraid you've entirely misunderstood my point about the love and the soul. As most reading that post would appreciate, I'm not asking for free hugs and joss sticks with each download. I'm talking about the sense of pride in your work that separates true quality from the perfunctory. About being far less vulgar about the fact you're out to make as much money as possible, thus ensuring your brand does not become 'most hated' and require an image reboot soon after.


It's about encouraging people like Simon Humber (who of course was in charge for WC2010 and this year's greatly improved CM) who have passion for including the sorts of things that go above and beyond what is expected. When somebody like that is at the helm you are led to feel as though the product you have bought was created with different priorities to those espoused in your post, and espoused by EA's usual 'business first, second and third' approach.

This doesn't necessitate becoming a non-profit organisation, or superimposing Princess Diana's face onto the EA Sports logo. But it does require some sort of understanding of how a heftily overpriced DLC about the Euros that isn't really about the Euros (let alone one that is practically unplayable on release) is not good for your company's image.

Making a lot of money for a good product is something everybody can respect; trying to make as much as possible for as little effort as possible, and being as brazen as possible about it, is another matter entirely.

[cfdh_edmundo]

It's ludicrous that EA havent done Ukraine properly. How can you have the "official" game of Euro 2012 having a fake team for one of the hosts? 53 "UEFA" teams, only half of them are in any way proper - and most of them were in FIFA12 anyway. As for their version of the Ukraine team and kit, a 10 year old could create better versions in the Creation Center.

[Jamezinho]

Sorry, I have I read that right - Poland and Ukraine are unlicensed?

[nerf]

Originally Posted by romagnoli

The rhetoric in 'diverting greater resource and greater expense' implies the current amount is sufficient, given the price point. It really isn't though. The problem is they haven't used sufficient resource or expense for that consumer cost to begin with - not to leave the consumer feeling sated or satisfied about £16 well spent.

As I said at the end of my post, I was putting the over-pricing aside and looking at the logistical aspect from EA's point of view.

I was trying to look at it from the perspective of whether EA hire/out-source a large dev team, for a longer dev cycle, to box and launch a larger-scoped, higher-risk stand-alone title, for 1.25m units sold. Or whether you go for a smaller team on a shorter cycle with the benefits of digital distribution into your existing title, and perhaps sell a vaguely similar number of units anyway (because of the aforementioned tournament hype).

They've used roughly the resource/expense for the type of product they intended to deliver: A stripped-down, quick/cheap to produce, downloadable integrated expansion for their FIFA12 title. That they then went and over-priced it is indeed questionable. It sounds to me like the price is the real issue rather than the content.

Originally Posted by romagnoli

As for atmosphere and soul, we're talking about something EA last achieved in WC2010. So it isn't like making a second FIFA title at all.

World Cup games ship twice as many units as Euro, so the extra development expense (out-sourcing, hiring, sustaining a longer cycle, launching a boxed title etc) is perhaps more worthwhile. Or maybe they looked at what they got out of the WC2010 project in hindsight and didn't want to repeat that anyway.

I think it is as much a matter of expectation as anything else. People thought they might get another WC2010, but what EA intended to produce was a small DLC. I suppose I'm not even really talking about whether that DLC is any good, more just the practical reasons of why they would go that route to begin with.

[pepper63]

They need to sort out the online squads, i mean when you start your game when you want to make any subs all you have is 2 keepers and 3 CB'S. Bollocks!

[Placebo]

Is it just me who thinks this is a massive piss take:

EA SPORTS FIFA ‏ @EASPORTSFIFA
Our first Euro 2012 Coke Zero Challenge is LIVE. Spain are having trouble in qualifiers against the Czech Republic, can you turn it around?

[Joe]

So Italy are licensed in this but not in the actual Fifa 12 game. Brilliant

[Mark]

Originally Posted by Jamezinho

Sorry, I have I read that right - Poland and Ukraine are unlicensed?

Sad but true. Besides Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Denmark, England, France, Germany, Greece, Ireland Netherland, Northern Ireland, Norway, Portugal, Scotland, Spain, Sweden and Turkey (all already in FIFA 12) the only new licenced teams are Italy and the Czech Republic. Neither the hosts Poland and Ukraine nor Russia are fully licenced...really sad.

[jackarmy]

Originally Posted by PU6HY

We've got just as much chance as winning the Euros as you (ie. fuck all!) and like you said, we aren't even in it!

Loves it!

Great reply fellow Cymro (even if you do support that horrible lot!)

My gripe isn't so much that we weren't in FIFA, but the fact that Northern Ireland are in, and yet they're something like 108th in the World (and we're 41st), and the previous reason from EA that we weren't high enough in the rankings is complete baloney. Fair enough Engl*nd and Scotland being in, but if NI are in the game then so should we. No disrespect to people from NI, just saying if they're going to put the home nations in, put all four in.

[romagnoli]

Originally Posted by nerf

As I said at the end of my post, I was putting the over-pricing aside and looking at the logistical aspect from EA's point of view.

I was trying to look at it from the perspective of whether EA hire/out-source a large dev team, for a longer dev cycle, to box and launch a larger-scoped, higher-risk stand-alone title, for 1.25m units sold. Or whether you go for a smaller team on a shorter cycle with the benefits of digital distribution into your existing title, and perhaps sell a vaguely similar number of units anyway (because of the aforementioned tournament hype).

Why is a boxed title a necessity for things like a separate trophy celebration cutscene, or the kit licenses for the home nations? Would slotting qualifiers into the existing CM template with a few new skins take up as much time and effort as a completely new mode (albeit one which probably took half its resource from the FIFA series and got shoehorned in here)?

Out of interest, where is this 1.25 million figure coming from? There are arguments for and against just halving the WC2010 sales, if that's what you've done. One the one hand, sure, the tournament is localised to Europe. On the other hand, it is less than half the RRP, FIFA itself is more established as the number 1 football title, and it can be both marketed and sold in-game.

They've used roughly the resource/expense for the type of product they intended to deliver: A stripped-down, quick/cheap to produce, downloadable integrated expansion for their FIFA12 title. That they then went and over-priced it is indeed questionable. It sounds to me like the price is the real issue rather than the content.

Which only demonstrates why you can't separate the price from the content. You could equally argue £16 is a perfectly reasonable price for a stripped down, quick/cheap to produce, downloadable integrated expansion for FIFA 12. It hangs on to what extent the content is stripped down.

If you have content which befits the £16 price then people wouldn't be complaining; if you have a price scaled down to suit the current content, ditto. That said, unless you brought the price seriously low, people would still wonder why the competing finalists aren't licensed. You'd have thought that would be a staple for Euro 2012 DLC?

World Cup games ship twice as many units as Euro, so the extra development expense (out-sourcing, hiring, sustaining a longer cycle, launching a boxed title etc) is perhaps more worthwhile. Or maybe they looked at what they got out of the WC2010 project in hindsight and didn't want to repeat that anyway.

I think it is as much a matter of expectation as anything else. People thought they might get another WC2010, but what EA intended to produce was a small DLC. I suppose I'm not even really talking about whether that DLC is any good, more just the practical reasons of why they would go that route to begin with.

Again, I think people's expectations are based on a combination of the price point and the quality of the product itself. I don't think people expected the entire WC2010 experience to be mapped across to the DLC, but people probably didn't expect as many cut corners as they've got either.

If what EA intended to produce and what they intended to charge went hand in hand, either in favour of the current content or price, then there wouldn't be the level of grievance as there is. But there's no getting away from the fact that they simply don't match up, and instead of £16 looking like a decent price for a lower key tournament offering, it comes across as a cash-in along the lines of the classic games-of-movies, or movies-of-games archetypes. In and of itself this is pretty dubious behaviour, but in the added context of EA's wider behaviour with DLC and Online Passes, the quest for more money is much more brazen than most other companies would be willing to let on.

[Flaw3d Genius]

Originally Posted by romagnoli

It's a real shame about the kits and licenses. This argument about limited resource seems smells of BS for a start, so you're left with the other point about limited market size. You're limiting your market size yourselves by releasing a half-baked product, and creating ill feeling amongst your future custom by not being open about it in the first place, particularly when charging what looks increasingly like an exorbitant amount of money in the first place. This Expedition mode seems vapid in the extreme despite almost getting bigger billing than the Euros themselves. Who thought that'd be a better idea than putting some basic effort into making people want to play qualifiers?

Now, EA will probably shift a number of millions of digital copies of Euro 2012 - a lot of them now, and then a big spike around the start of the Euros themselves. There will probably be statistics that justify not licensing the teams ("See? We were right. Nobody played as Welas, or North Ilerand, or Sberbia") and so many people will casually get the download without ever hearing from others that the DLC is only half licensed and lacks qualifiers. But these little tournament games are a rare opportunity for EA to show some love for what they do, to try and put some of that soul into the experience that FIFA perpetually lacks. Everything about the DLC seems money-oriented from the off, rather than about being a product that shares in our love of the sport while also happening to make money. The ability to pull off that image is the sort of thing that stops you getting voted Worst Company In America.

Not sure what teams are not licensed but is it not the case that Konami have the licenses that Fifa are missing making it impossible for them to get them?

[nerf]

Originally Posted by romagnoli

Out of interest, where is this 1.25 million figure coming from?

vgchartz has Euro 2008 at 1.21m units, World Cup 2010 at 2.64m. Both dwarfed by the 10.79m of FIFA12.

To be clear, it's not my intention to defend EA over this or claim the DLC is worth buying. I presently have no intention of buying it, but I wasn't really looking for a Euro 2012 game in the first place. I'm only trying to describe why I think a stripped down DLC makes practical sense and shouldn't be compared to the WC2010 game, before worrying about whether it's any good or priced correctly.

[pepper63]

This is a piss take, so Wales are in DLC but are not in Fifa 12? The players don't have real names but all are in the Fifa12 rosters. So why not call the Galles and put real players in. They spew it's licence issue, then there are no qualifiers and to top it off the bloody thing freezes when you play online. £15.99 well spent? Umm not sure.

[PU6HY]

I played a game earlier and was losing and the game was freezing after each goal. It would take a while to come back but when I went 4-2 down (god knows how as i was all over him but thats footy hey) it just stayed frozen. I've never a quit a game in my life and the kid starts accusing me of cheating by making the disc freeze (that chest is news to me but I find it funny that hes aware of a cheat like it). Explained to him that it wasn't my fault but he wasn't having any of it. If there's one thing I'm not, it's a cheat! If the game freezes, it freezes. Cheeky little bastard! Seems like it's happening for others too then. Only first time it's happened for me but it's still annoying.

[CalcioCalabrese]

Not sure if this is related to the Euro DLC but I'll ask here. Put in FIFA 12 last night after a week or so and it prompted me for a 12 megabyte update. Went into the game after it installed and it freezes (3 times I tried) on a black screen with the little loading circle stuck. Just before it loads the main menu. Anyone else had this problem? I went into my xbox memory and deleted the update and chose not to reapply it and the xbox worked again. WTF?

[Placebo]

Originally Posted by CalcioCalabrese

Not sure if this is related to the Euro DLC but I'll ask here. Put in FIFA 12 last night after a week or so and it prompted me for a 12 megabyte update. Went into the game after it installed and it freezes (3 times I tried) on a black screen with the little loading circle stuck. Just before it loads the main menu. Anyone else had this problem? I went into my xbox memory and deleted the update and chose not to reapply it and the xbox worked again. WTF?

Try this workaround: http://forums.evo-web.co.uk/showpost...postcount=5738

[mfmaxpower]

Originally Posted by romagnoli

I'm afraid you've entirely misunderstood my point about the love and the soul. As most reading that post would appreciate, I'm not asking for free hugs and joss sticks with each download. I'm talking about the sense of pride in your work that separates true quality from the perfunctory. About being far less vulgar about the fact you're out to make as much money as possible, thus ensuring your brand does not become 'most hated' and require an image reboot soon after.


It's about encouraging people like Simon Humber (who of course was in charge for WC2010 and this year's greatly improved CM) who have passion for including the sorts of things that go above and beyond what is expected. When somebody like that is at the helm you are led to feel as though the product you have bought was created with different priorities to those espoused in your post, and espoused by EA's usual 'business first, second and third' approach.

This doesn't necessitate becoming a non-profit organisation, or superimposing Princess Diana's face onto the EA Sports logo. But it does require some sort of understanding of how a heftily overpriced DLC about the Euros that isn't really about the Euros (let alone one that is practically unplayable on release) is not good for your company's image.

Making a lot of money for a good product is something everybody can respect; trying to make as much as possible for as little effort as possible, and being as brazen as possible about it, is another matter entirely.

This I think is the crux of the matter. On one hand you have the sense of pride that a dev, like Humber, would experience from producing a quality game product. On the other hand, you have the sense of pride that an EA exec would experience from improving upon the company's bottom-line. The goals of both need not be mutually-exclusive, however EA was named Worst Company in America for a reason.

The Euro DLC actually reminds me a lot of Dragon Age 2 - it's a greedy cash-in on a AAA franchise that reeks of an top-down executive order made with only an accounting spreadsheet in mind.

You could even take this a step further and argue that Simon Humber is filling the role of Bioware in all this - whereas EA are clearly exploiting the reputation Bioware developed through years of releasing top-quality products, that were clearly driven by the Bioware devs' sense of pride, in this Euro DLC EA are again exploiting the hard work put in by Humber et al on the World Cup game.

And actually, it might be the game devs who are in the worst position, being stuck between the EA decision-makers who cut their paychecks and us the customers and fanbase who expect a quality product.

It'll be if anything at least interesting to see how this strategy pans out for EA - nerf on one hand makes the argument for why EA's approach makes sense, whilst Rom makes the case for why it could backfire. I'd like to think that EA's approach of viewing its customers as a bunch of suckers with bottomless wallets will prove unsustainable, and you'd think that at some point the fans will just have had enough, but as of right now EA are doing little to change their reputation as a bunch of money hungry bastards.

[SteelHorse75]

Originally Posted by PU6HY

We've got just as much chance as winning the Euros as you (ie. fuck all!) and like you said, we aren't even in it!

Agree! I'm English and will say here and now we won't win it and I couldn't care less. Club before country every time!

[trebel]

As long as Spain or Italy don't win , I'm happy

[cowden_harley]

Fucking EA. Waste of time and effort this dlc. Why bother. Im certainly not. Pish.

[Me!TheRaven]

U can´t even choose to play Euro 12 multiplayer offline with mates. I just couldn´t believe my eyes and fingers...gathered mates, spent 1800 points, downloaded it and then... WHAT THE F**K!!!!!! It has to be patched pronto EA. Go f**K someone else´s money from here on. Stop.